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29 September 2012 @ 11:13 pm
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1.So River gets pardoned, because the Doctor never existed. Hmm...How does that work? Or more specifically, when does she get pardoned, I wonder? In the S5 Angels episodes, she still needs a pardon, but all of that got rewritten anyway. Still, I like that she's not serving that sentence, even if it was pretty flexible to begin with, given how often she broke out of prison.

2. If I think about this too long, I will cry, but in her last scene, I love that Amy calls River "Melody," and also that she tells Melody to look after the Doctor - because that relationship is so fluid; sometimes the Doctor is impossibly ancient and sees little Amelia when he looks at Amy, but Amy is equally capable of seeing the Doctor as someone who needs looking after. He's not...epic to her, any more, and she just loves him and doesn't want him to be alone.

3. Two moments where I was kind of like, "oh here, Matt Smith, I will just hand you my heart right now and save you the trouble":
--the bit where he's so pleased that River has (seemingly) gotten away from the Angel without breaking her own wrist: she did it, she rewrote time, it's going to be okay. And then it isn't, at all.
--putting on Amy's reading glasses, and the way he closes his eyes tightly as though just doing that hurts, because earlier he was so playful and insouciant in those same glasses, and you can see that memory happening in the way he shuts his eyes. Ouch.

4. "So you think you'll just come back to life?"
"When don't I?"
Oh, Rory, I love you so much, you impossible ridiculous miracle.
 
 
 
viomisehuntviomisehunt on September 30th, 2012 03:17 pm (UTC)
I love that Amy calls River "Melody," and also that she tells Melody to look after the Doctor - because that relationship is so fluid; sometimes the Doctor is impossibly ancient and sees little Amelia when he looks at Amy, but Amy is equally capable of seeing the Doctor as someone who needs looking after. So much this. It is the only time I felt like tearing up, watching Amy acknowledge her daughter with her given name. Lovely moment.
So you think you'll just come back to life?"
"When don't I?" :)



tempestsarekind: rory and amytempestsarekind on September 30th, 2012 07:26 pm (UTC)
I love the relationship between Amy and River/Melody, and when Amy goes all motherly.
viomisehuntviomisehunt on September 30th, 2012 08:04 pm (UTC)
I only wish Amy would have encouraged the Doctor to hold River closer and not allow River to block his efforts to give her the same love and care that she gives him. River deserves better than the Doctor, her spouse and partner thinking of her grief for her parents as a afterthought. As others have notice, River is like her father, Rory in that, but Amy doesn't let Rory get away with that, and the Doctor shouldn't allow River to get away from with it, either. Is River protecting the Doctor by hiding the worst of her pain, or is she sheilding herself--afraid that if he IS there for her, if he gives her the comfort and understanding she needs, that she might not bend but will break under the weight of it all?
tempestsarekind: eleventempestsarekind on September 30th, 2012 08:31 pm (UTC)
I didn't really understand the Doctor's "I didn't even think" line, to be honest. It was River who urged Amy to follow Rory while the Doctor was urging her back to the TARDIS, and it's not like we saw him denying the reality of her grief. If he had, then sure, but as shown, all I saw was him crying, which is reasonable when you've just lost someone you love.
viomisehuntviomisehunt on September 30th, 2012 09:01 pm (UTC)
I didn't really understand the Doctor's "I didn't even think" line, to be honest

River told her mom that she doesn't allow him to see how badly she is hurt-which is the worst sort of enabling behavior--so I question, other than she offering him comfort, if he did put situation in River's perspective or at that moment felt that she warrented his consideration. He has been consistantly very self-absorbed when it comes to the relationship between the Williams/Ponds and their daughter. I am more than a little miffed at this fixed point nonsense, as the excuse for not returning the infant Melody to Amy and Rory, and his solution of a fine house and car as substitute for the loss of a child they knew was living in hellish conditions.

Is it possible that when he grabbed her wrist, this might have been the first time she was unable to hide her hurt from him?

Some one noted in a another thread that he isn't often nice to her. If we amend "nice" to the Doctor is not often as kind, understanding and considerate with River as he should be, I would agree. However, I would agree that this stands out not because River is his wife,-- but because she is Melody Pond, and Melody deserves better from the Doctor. He is not patient with her, but I wonder if because of her knowledge and conditions of her birth, he expects her to behave like a Time Lord, instead of a human? Imagine how confusing it must be to River to try and behave according to mores of a dead culture. And it is possible that that they are both scared--River more so--of what may happen to River if she ever opens up as much as she should with him. After all, he knows better than River how finite that relationship is.
tempestsarekindtempestsarekind on September 30th, 2012 10:48 pm (UTC)
Right - it's certainly *possible* that the Doctor didn't think of River, but we didn't see him not doing it, so the line feels like it comes out of nowhere to me. Also...people are not necessarily multitaskers in the face of immediate grief. I don't think it's quite fair to say that River's feelings are nothing more than an "afterthought" to him when he's just been blindsided by loss and doesn't seem to be functioning at all. The fact that he comes to recognize her loss, after the immediate onslaught, seems reasonable. As a statement about their relationship as a whole, the Doctor may well not be as considerate to her as he should be, but I don't think it fits in this particular case, because it implies that there's a right, measured way for him to grieve, and that he should be able to put her first (or should be faulted when he doesn't).

As for giving Melody back to her parents - when the Doctor meets River for the first time in the Library, she commands him not to rewrite her life, which giving her back to her parents would do. I agree that the Doctor handled the whole situation extremely poorly - hopping into the TARDIS when Amy and Rory are still grieving, etc. - but without what happens to her, I don't see how Melody Pond becomes River Song, so I don't see what the Doctor could have done without rewriting her completely. (Obviously Moffat could have chosen to tell a different story, but within that story, I don't see that the Doctor has many options.)
viomisehuntviomisehunt on October 1st, 2012 01:44 am (UTC)
it's quite fair to say that River's feelings are nothing more than an "afterthought" I called it an after thought because the Doctor says outright that he didn't think that River had lost her parents until then--after she has comforted and calmed him down enough to speak. He was so upset about the loss of the friend that he didn't think looking at River, that "Melody" has just lost her parents--and it may be because he doesn't see baby Melody each time he sees River. Although I agree--people forget about siblings of the departed when comforting the spouse, and without compassion it can become a bitter moment.

but without what happens to her, I don't see how Melody Pond becomes River Song, so I don't see what the Doctor could have done without rewriting her completely. That's not a bad thing- especially in a story where sacrifice is key, and the hero is nearly immortal. It might have hurt the Doctor to see Melody grow up in a semi-normal life, not even look the same, but happy, safe with her adult parents and moving in a different direction, maybe choosing to travel with Uncle Doctor--or not. As she would have been part Time Lord, he would be needed but more a parent/uncle/godparent than husband/lover. Would he adjust? Moffat reasoning for the Doctor not returning Melody did not seem River's plea not to change matters, but the fixed point. In the library it is the River who experienced a horrific childhood who asks him not to change one line because of the comparitive joy she felt after the Doctor became a part of her life. She can't miss a childhood she never had, but contrarily and as much as I love River, I think Melody, Amy, and Rory deserved that chance to be a real family. It would be a sacrifice for the Doctor, but I think a worthwhile one. Problematically however, River has been too instrumental in saving the day, and all in all she may have had to have a hand in her conception. Could bringing the baby home end up in a situation where --although Rory and Amy are together--the first child is not conceived on the TARDIS.
tempestsarekind: amy and her boystempestsarekind on October 1st, 2012 05:40 pm (UTC)
But just as we don't know exactly how the Doctor behaved toward River in that missing scene, we equally don't know that River comforted him. (For example, they could both have been preoccupied with their private grief.) It's all speculation either way. It's true that the Doctor says he didn't think that River had just lost her parents, but that's not the same thing as saying her feelings were an afterthought - that is, they are *literally* the same, but "afterthought" has a much more negative connotation, and implies that he had an obligation to think of her first. I just don't think that's a fair charge to lay on anyone who's grieving, to say that they ought to have done things differently (short of actively hurting another person, that is). If we'd seen him yell at her, or belittle her, then sure - but I can't blame him for not being at his best when he's just lost family, too.

As for rewriting River and making her Melody: I still believe that that is River's choice to make, and she makes it in the Library episodes. (There's also a fan interpretation that she chooses that fate again when she gives Amy the blank TARDIS journal at her wedding; otherwise Amy wouldn't have remembered the Doctor, and Amy and Rory would never have conceived Melody in the TARDIS.) The Doctor *shouldn't* disregard that because he thinks she ought to have grown up with her parents. It's not about his sacrifice; it's about respecting her wishes. Now, it's *also* true that the Doctor's death at Lake Silencio is a fixed point (although that fixed point might well come into being another way if River never existed), but Moffat is telling River's story backwards; just because he doesn't focus on River's command to the Doctor in S6 doesn't make it less important at the end of her life, and at the beginning of the Doctor's knowledge of her. That's practically the first thing he knows of her: "Not those times. Not one line. Don't you dare." What gives him the right to disregard that, even if he were willing to sacrifice having River in his life?
viomisehuntviomisehunt on October 1st, 2012 07:41 pm (UTC)
But just as we don't know exactly how the Doctor behaved toward River in that missing scene, we equally don't know that River comforted him.

Before the missing scene of them going inside the TARDIS, we don't see a mutual embrace, but we do see River, swallow her on feelings and step up take the Doctor's shoulder--offering him comfort. Whether or not he accepted it once inside the TARDIS is uncertain, but we know that River offered comfort to the Doctor immediately after Amy's name appeared.


I still believe that that is River's choice to make, and she makes it in the Library episodes. We have to agree to disagree on this one. It is River's life, but it was not the adult River's choice to be concieved and carried to term--it was Amy's and Rory's. Do rights actually factor into a question of someone criminally altering the natural order? If the Doctor has a duty--not right, but duty--it is to justice and the crime here is the Silence taking that child and turning her into a weapon. Could he have prevented this--well the convenient fixed point says no. However, I am not comfortable the idea that adult River is responsible for her parents agony and horror when they lose their baby. We witness Amy longing for her baby in the first set of Mini-sodes in episode Six. We see Amy so furious and wounded that she commits murder. I do not think that had River truly witnessed and understood the depths of her mother's suffering that River would have been as insistant that theTenth not change anything--unless she believed that it (the Silence interference) couldn't be changed. And maybe in what in a childish attempt, she reached back into her past and somehow guilded her young self to her youthful parents. After all someone with time traveling abilities had to have moved Melody to - she was a toddler in 1969--not the 90s. A blantant, base, criminal act seperated parents and child. Regardless of what the Silence planned to do with their baby, Amy and Rory obviously came together, without the thought of using conception, therefore anticipating having a child whom they were ready to accept the responsiblities, the joys and the pain of raising together, and other than Moffat's bothersome fixed points, I see no reason what-so-ever, including the adult River's wishes, to deprive all three of them of the opportunity for a different and better life.

Of course if the Day Rory dissapeared is the day he died, as someone pointed out, then he went back to 1970, New York--where their daughter is, and perhaps Amy showed up three years later, so the change might have started.


Edited at 2012-10-01 07:46 pm (UTC)
tempestsarekind: a sort of fairytaletempestsarekind on October 3rd, 2012 01:20 am (UTC)
Fair enough! My larger opinion still stands, though: I don't think it's quite fair to blame the Doctor for the way he might have grieved. And after all, it's not as though River has to *remind* him that she's lost her parents as well; he does realize that point.

Yes, we probably will just have to agree to disagree about the question of rewriting River: I don't think that a person's parents ought to have more say about how a person's life should turn out than that person herself.

Take "The Girl Who Waited," for example. The Doctor attempts to rewrite older Amy's life, claiming that she never should have existed - and older Amy refuses, and quite right too, because it's her choice. (Notably, Rory can't make that decision, can't say that it's right to rewrite older Amy out of existence, even if that means he doesn't get to grow old with Amy.) It's Amy who has to convince her older self to rewrite time for Rory, and older Amy who ultimately chooses to give her days to young Amy. And the Doctor, despite desperately wanting to do the right thing in this situation, is shown *not* to be unequivocally right in his decisions throughout the episode.

I see the situation with River in the same way. Amy and Rory have their daughter taken from them, and that is absolutely wrong, and causes them great pain. But does that give them a greater say in what should happen to River than River herself has? I don't think it does.
viomisehuntviomisehunt on October 3rd, 2012 05:08 am (UTC)
I don't think it's quite fair to blame the Doctor for the way he might have grieved I have to read my post again; was there "blame" in my tone? He is not--probably because River doesn't allow him to,-- accustomed to sharing his pain, and in this moment --and people do it,-- he forgets that the person offering him comfort is just as much in pain. When he does think of caring for rive, she pushes her own grief—down, rather than sharing it with him, because this is what River thinks very mistakenly is her duty—to protect him from her pain. If this were true , what good is he as her life partner then, if he can’t bear her hurt, just has he obviously expects her to help him bear hers? It was very painful to watch, because River does not allow the Doctor to show that he loves her just as much as she does him, and that that her feelings matter as much as his grief. And it is clear, he has no clue on how to make that part of their relationship better.

don't think that a person's parents ought to have more say about how a person's life should turn out than that person herself. Not many people have the same opportunity as River--as an adult to decide her path before she is born—so again I’m not certain about her rights—or seeing the decision as ethical. ) River has a life because of her parent's choices. I simply cannot agree that River has greater right to decide that her brief happiness with the Doctor is worth the cost of her mother and father's grief and loss.

It's Amy who has to convince her older self to rewrite time for Rory But Amy is sacrificing a life that was not the result of two loving people coming together to add an extension of their love. The older Amy existed because of an accident in time. She sacrifices that life save Her past self out of love for Rory, and out of the love and devotion she felt for the life they choose--the life she missed. She ccouldn't do that to herself or Rory. Amy is not making a choice that deprives Her parents of the lives they had chosen to live with their infant daughter.
It is also interesting that you mention older Amy, who cannot be moved by hearing herself cry--but by Rory having to listen to Amy cry for help and is never answered--because that very much describes Melody/River--a child crying for help, calling the President, calling out to her Mother who shot her--and well, no one really answering her. Maybe as an adult, River concluded that they gave up and were better off and happier without her.

Edited at 2012-10-03 05:33 am (UTC)
tempestsarekind: come along pondstempestsarekind on October 4th, 2012 01:04 am (UTC)
No, "blame" probably isn't the right word for what I mean, and it definitely wasn't directed at you - sorry! I was trying to convey the sense that I just didn't think it was the Doctor's fault (and I'm not saying that you do), that it was a scene between two damaged people who don't always know how to do what's best for each other, or themselves. So I think we probably agree more than disagree on that!
(Deleted comment)
tempestsarekindtempestsarekind on September 30th, 2012 07:22 pm (UTC)
Yes - they're so delightful with each other, and then that changes to sadness so quickly!